| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| garybrun |
Posted - 21/03/2009 : 21:03:22
I received this today from one of our French members on my forum.
They have no where to record their finds. I'll give more news as soon as I receive it.
quote:
Dear friends in the other side of the Channel, we are French prospectors, members of the National Association for the metal Detection of Leisure (ANDL) and we have news to give you.
With the issues we face in France, to practice our hobby, we decided to force the French authorities to take a clear position.
Starting a few days ago, we are now sending statement forms, (for recording of our finds), at the Roman Legion Museum of Caerleon, in Wales, asking for an "archaeological asylum".
We just wanted you to be among the first to be informed of our claims by this campaign.
Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Oxbeast |
Posted - 17/04/2009 : 14:45:40
Did you get any further with this, Gary? |
| afarensis |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 17:02:01
'What would be nice is a licensing and training system for metal detectorists put in place.'
There used to be a system in the UK. When I was a kid my dad had a metal detector and had to get a licence. Mind you in those days i doubt anyone cared what damage was done to archaeological sites given that archaeologists still had to access sites at weekends and evenings in order to record what had been encountered on some fairly impressive sites.
'Do not underestimate the Time Team Effect in the UK. The public ask good questions here because they've been educated in an inclusive manner.'
Ha Ha Ha Ha (etc.) Thats fantastic!! Over 90% of the questions i ever got were along the lines of 'found any gold/dinosaurs' or 'do you want to dig my garden'. and regretably 'i dont give a f*** about archaeology, what will really happen to me if i rip it all out why you are at break?'
I am now a DC archaeologist and have been asked more than once by developers to explain the three day rule to them, i.e 'why do archaeologists only get three days to dig a site.'
That said I do support the idea of archaeological asylumn, the french detectorists do seem to be in a no win situation. The very nature of which means that it will be only those who try and inform someone of their finds that are prosecuted.
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| trowelmonkey |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 16:26:09
What would be nice is a licensing and training system for metal detectorists put in place. I wish this had been the case in the UK decades ago and then maybe we would never have gotten into the muddle it's taking so long to get out of. France really could take the lead in showing by good example.
But, the French archaeological scene is also a very different cultural mileu to here with far fewer routes to participate in archaeology. (It's a VERY long degree by British standards.) My impression from occasional forays across the channel is that archaeology is still extremely academic and hierarchically structured. Compared to other languages I read the available literature is either very technical and academic or general and a bit nationalistic. There doesn't seem to be so much aimed at the intelligent layman.
Consequently, the public's knowledge of archaeology (and how it is done) is generally very poor with thoughts of pyramids and dinosaurs excavated by brush foremost in the mind. Do not underestimate the Time Team Effect in the UK. The public ask good questions here because they've been educated in an inclusive manner.
All this is to me a great pity. I know that since I started working commercially my cache as a scholar in France sank like a lead balloon with a sneer of, "but if you dig everything you know nothing."
I have alot of sympathy with the French detectorists wanting to be part of their history.
Now, I personally think Gary is in the moral right by offer to help construct a RESPONSIBLE recording framework, but am seriously worried what might happen without official sponsorship. (A trial parish perhaps?) The reason I'm saying this is because the horse has already bolted a long time ago. I've been nighthawked in France and sat up all night guarding another site too.
A responsible system would really help to flag up all the good work recovering data which would otherwise be lost. When it's done like that detectorists can be encouraged to spot and report other finds too. I'm sure that some of the damage currently being done to French scheduled sites is a political two-fingers at the system. That could stop with co-operation and education (so methodology isn't treated like some secret rite). If the good detectorista become legit them there would surely be more good will in reporting and crowding out the treasure hunters?
Perhaps Jean-Christophe could comment if my impressions seem far off the mark? |
| garybrun |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 15:30:31
Good points.
I don't know much about the French laws to be honest... but I do know they have metal detector manufacturers and dealers in France. Need to find out a bit more and I will get back to you.
I'm offering the French a clone of our database to use to record heritage items.
What they do with it is there own decision and only theirs and has nothing to do with me.
I am also not condoning what they do nor am I encouraging them to break the law.
The law is the law and everyone should abide by it... or the world would be in a lot worse mess than it is now.
Would you as an archaeologist be able to justify seeing national heritage destroyed in a country?
If you had the ability and chance to save some of those items for future generations... would you do it?
Look at what has been destroyed in Iraq and other places by the ravages of war.
Someone has to do something if it means so much to future generations.
What does concern me is the heritage that is not being recorded no matter what country it is in.
I just feel I cant just let it happen.
So where does one morally draw the line??
I think archaeologists have a much harder time in making decisions on what can be developed or not developed due to price constraints etc.
I do understand your points though... and I am thinking it through a lot more.
Am I being "responsible" or "Irresponsible"??
Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.
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| Oxbeast |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 14:50:58
I didn't say that you were breaking the law, gary, I said that you are condoning people who are. What Caerleon are being sent is evidence of criminal activity, which the relevant authorities may ask for in the future.
You may think that the law in France should be the same as in the UK, but there are democratic processes for the French to decide this for themselves. I think that you risk undermining the position of the UKDFD as being in support of 'responsible detecting'. How can this be responsible if it is illegal? |
| garybrun |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 14:38:18
I knew that woould be a question asked of me.
I am not breaking any law.
Im offering to record the heritage and some where for it to be recorded.
Im not receiving or selling anything.
There is a big differance.
Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.
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| Oxbeast |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 14:15:42
Indeed Austin. Also if people in France are being prosecuted, wouldn't you risk being asked to hand over names? I hope Caerleon has taken legal advice on this one. |
| Austin Ainsworth |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 14:11:01
quote:
Originally posted by Oxbeast
Doesn't this put you (and perhaps Caerleon) in a legally questionable area, gary? If using a metal detector for prospecting purposes is illegal in France, as I believe it is in Ireland, isn't this condoning people breaking the law?
Agreed - I'm in favour of helping the detectorist community but not in helping them to break the laws of another country.
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| Oxbeast |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 14:01:52
Doesn't this put you (and perhaps Caerleon) in a legally questionable area, gary? If using a metal detector for prospecting purposes is illegal in France, as I believe it is in Ireland, isn't this condoning people breaking the law? |
| BAJR Host |
Posted - 24/03/2009 : 08:01:07
Am indeed getting the idea that punishing everyone for the crimes of the few is not the most sensible idea.. (see 30 years of distrust that the UK STOP campaign created!) Once again, acting responsibly seems to be the only option, and a means of recording the past actually helps in the long run.
“When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.”
William Blake |
| Dirty Dave Lincoln |
Posted - 23/03/2009 : 22:54:39
Hi Jean-Christophe,
here in the UK we have a big roblem with rogue metal-detectorists (called nighthawks) who think nothing of robbing archaelogical sites for their own gain, but equally so we have many people who use metal detectors, who do invaluable work in recovering metalwork that would otherwise be lost and many of which are more than willing to work side-by-side with archaeologists-only by encouraging people to come forward with their finds will they be recorded,to penalise honest people will only make the problem of nighthawking worse.
Is there a big problem in France with some metal-detectorist robbing sites? if so, then punishing people who want to declare their artifacts wont make the problem go away. Authorities in most countries find it easier to prosecute honest people than trying to tackle the real problem-that is, those folks who dont want to declare what they find!
How does French law operate in regards to farmers? as many in north-east France have collections of finds from the two world wars, that they find during ploughing-do these have to be declared? or as landowners do they get to keep them for their own private collections? |
| FrogsJC |
Posted - 23/03/2009 : 18:24:24
Hello Gary,
In France everything is forbidden, you can take the metall detector only to find the pipes, metal pipes.
We risk prison if we declare our artefacts.
Now, the law is increasingly heavy.
Talk archaeological authority is a dream in France.
We also have a new association (HAPPAH) which want also make a new law for France and for Europe, to forbid the detection.
Below the HAPPAH link:
www.halte-au-pillage.org/
Cheers,
Jean-Christophe |
| garybrun |
Posted - 22/03/2009 : 19:57:40
Maybe you should go to the latest PAS conference and see what the French archaeologist representative says...and then you could ask some pertinent questions?
Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.
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| Dirty Dave Lincoln |
Posted - 22/03/2009 : 19:23:48
quote "An oligarchy of archaeologists, who think we are too stupid to participate in the preservation of our heritage"
Jean-Christophe, there are some archaeologists in the UK who mistakenly think along the same lines about anyone with a metal detector.
Good luck with the campaign. |
| FrogsJC |
Posted - 22/03/2009 : 18:43:12
Hello Tom,
To answer at your question, it's exactly the big issue in france:
1)Central authority
2)An oligarchy of archaeologists, who think we are too stupid to participate in the preservation of our heritage
Cheers
Jean-Christophe |
